Recently we had the pleasure of taking a deep dive into a personal all time favorite with Bill Paxton’s Frailty and then sitting down to speak with David Kirschner, successful producer of everything from Frailty to the Child’s Play franchise to Hocus Pocus and An American Tail: Fievel Goes West.
David graced us with some incredible stories about the making of Frailty; he told us about James Cameron’s “massive” contribution to the film and of the death threats he received before the film was even released. We even touched on the chances of Frailty going to 4K and the possibility of a Chucky-free Charles Lee Ray Child’s Play prequel starring Brad Dourif.
But most importantly, David shares his fascinating and heartfelt stories of working with the one of a kind Bill Paxton as they created Frailty.
Bloody Disgusting: Thank you for taking the time to do this. I really appreciate the kind words you sent over about our 21st anniversary Frailty article.
David Kirschner: (It was a) very nice article. Thank you. Bill (Paxton) would have been busting at his seams with pride.
BD: That’s a huge honor. Thank you. We were talking before about the dichotomy between children’s movies and horror. I feel like the scariest part of Frailty is actually the moment where the dad wakes the kids up in the middle of the night to tell them about his vision. It’s just such a life wrecking moment for them in an instant.
DK: Yeah, when Fenton says, “my little boy world was turned upside down.” Just a fantastic sentence right there by Brent Hanley who wrote that brilliant script. Such a talented, talented guy.
BD: Speaking of Brent Hanley, I noticed he never had another feature film writing credit after Frailty which I found strange considering how good this script was. Do you have any insight as to why that might be?
DK: For a couple years I did have an answer to that and beyond that I really don’t. So, here’s what my answer was for those couple of years right after the film: I think for Brent the response to the film was so great. The likes of (Steven) Spielberg wanted to meet with him. Just every studio executive, just everybody loved the film. It was upsetting (material) but they loved the film. Any meetings I had with executives….that was the film. Of all the films I’ve made. That was the film they had so many questions on. They would say how much they loved it. And I think that kind of created….and this is from my point of view….a sophomore jinx for Brent Handley. I think that he was frightened to take the next step and do another film, or another screenplay. I don’t know if privately he wrote twelve more. I have no idea. I believe that the film kind of messed with him. And it wasn’t box office success….but it was success by critics and success by the fact that everybody wanted to meet with him. I wish it had been like that when we went out with it because we couldn’t sell it to any studio because of the subject matter. Children, murder, in the name of God? I mean you couldn’t put a worse group together in a box and bring it to a studio than the idea of these elements. We were very, very fortunate that after my wife and I put in a good deal of money into Frailty that we had the white knight come in of Lionsgate that really rescued us….and my marriage (laughs).
BD: Can you talk about how Frailty came to be and how it ended up in your wheelhouse?
DK: How Brent came up with this is beyond me. He tells a story that he and his wife had some drug addictions. They were living in Tyler, TX which is where the story takes place. He turned to his wife, Faith….which sounds like it’s something from the movie….and said, “Baby we gotta get out of here or we’re going to die.” And they moved to Boston and Brent got into the writing program at Emery and he wrote that script. He sent it out and I think the response was great, but no-one wanted to touch it and that’s when Karen Loop got it and brought it to Corey Sienega and me and I just….it’s a world that I truly love, what he created there. The casting was amazing. Bill (Paxton) was the first person on set every day. The last person to leave. I called him a “Swiss army knife” because he was moving furniture, he was doing anything he could on that film. As we go on, I’ll tell you (a story) about the editing progress and James Cameron.
BD: I can’t wait to hear about that. There are two frightening narratives happening at once in Frailty. Either “dad” is telling the truth and killing demons in the name of God or he’s murdering innocent people and forcing his kids to help. Was there any question of which road you were going to land on? And did you receive any flak from religious communities in regard to the imagery?
DK: I had to have LAPD protection because I was getting letters from the Christian right delivered to our home with our two daughters at that point saying they were gonna put a bullet in my head. This was before the film even came out. Which honestly makes no sense to me. Anybody that is that religious, when you look at the first testament? God is a smiting deity. This is a power that…if you look at him the wrong way….you’re going to be turned to salt, swallowed by an earthquake, you’re going to be drowned in a flood. I mean, really violent stuff and that’s what inspired Brent. There was this Abraham and Isaac element to it, right? To remind your listeners… in the bible, God speaks to Abraham and says, “I want you to prove your loyalty to me and I want you to sacrifice your son.” And man, Abraham is there with a knife in his hand about to do it on an alter and that’s where the angel stops him. And as a little kid in Sunday School that story just blew my mind. What kind of God would ask someone to do something like that? To murder their child? And to me it had those elements. (Specifically, the moment where “Dad” has to stop himself from murdering young Fenton with the shovel and has the weight of God on his shoulders). I just thought it was so smart and I’ve never read a script like that before or after.
BD: I’m surprised that those groups would come after you considering the film isn’t a damnation of either of those things. It kind of walks the line between them. It doesn’t actually tell you whether Dad is on a mission from God or not.
DK: It doesn’t and that to me is something I’m very proud of. After screenings, Bill and I would go to different theaters, and we would just stand in the lobby. Bill was kind of in disguise, for me it wasn’t really a problem (laughs). We would just stand there and listen to people and they would argue “No, God really did come to Dad and the world is going to end in this movie” and others just saying “No, Dad was crazy” and I just love that. I don’t know the answer to this. I’d like to believe that God did come to him. I think that’s really cool. I’m not sure what I believe in. But the idea that in this world that God did come to him? I think that’s pretty great.
BD: I think you all did a great job of that. Was there ever any other ending?
DK: You know, this is where I was going with the James Cameron of it all. We were editing, Bill and I and our editor Arnie Glassman….wonderful man who’s sadly since passed away as well…and Bill said “Jim’s gonna come by and look at the film and give me some thoughts” and I thought “whoa, okay. That’s exciting.” So, James does come and he looks at the film and he just said, “You know, I think it’s really, really good.” But in the beginning, there are some scenes that …because it starts in more present day and then flashes back to the 70’s….James had said “I think you should move this from the end and move it to the beginning and I think that will make the end that much more succinct.” We weren’t even clear what he was talking about neither Bill, or I, nor Arnie and he says, “Can I just show you?” and boom. This guy is so brilliant and he does everything and he puts it together and we look at it and it changed the entire film. As Bill said, “That’s why he’s James Cameron.” It was a moment that I felt like such a fanboy just sitting there and watching Jim look at this, take it all in and make this subtle change that completely changed the end so that you weren’t sure what it was. Was Dad crazy? Or was Dad literally speaking to God? And James Cameron deserves enormous credit for that. And Bill does for bringing him in. James Cameron’s contribution to the film, which was massive, made for such a better ending.
BD: Backing up a second, how did Bill Paxton end up as the director of Frailty?
DK: I’ll tell you something interesting. Bill came to my house for lunch. He had read the script. He liked the part of Dad. It was JUST being offered to him to play Dad. I wanted somebody that the baggage they brought….in a Tom Hanks way….was just great….people loved him, loved his characters that he’d been over the years. Bill fit into that perfectly. Bill was very much a dude and fans loved his persona. I just thought that would be great there. Bill comes to the house and he had his saddle bag. He always had his saddle bags with him. We’re having lunch at the house and he said, “Boy it’s going to take a really interesting director to make this film work right. I don’t want to be painted with the brush that painted Anthony Perkins as Psycho because it destroyed his career.” He said, “It’s very subtle stuff here” and I said, “I agree” but I really wanted Bill. I just said, “Look (something I don’t usually say to actors), we’ll make that decision together. I will keep you informed on the director and you give me your input.” And Bill said “Well, David….I was thinking I’d like to direct it.” I’m smiling and shaking my head but inside I’m thinking “Oh shit, what do I do now? We’re having lunch together. He’s here. HE wants to play Dad but now he’s saying he wants to direct it as well.” A million miles an hour these thoughts are going through my head, what am I gonna say to this guy? And he said, “Let me just show you a couple things that I’m thinking.”
And most people don’t know this about Bill, he was a really good artist and he storyboarded key scenes of the entire film. By himself… just phenomenal…I wish I had those storyboards, I’m sure Louise, his wife, does. He storyboarded it all and then he pulled out from his saddle bags (these) art books because he was talking about pallets of color that would be right for the film and what would make the character pop against it. Clearly, a cinema fan. Someone that loved the history of cinema but really knew what he was talking about. I was blown away. I did not expect that at all. (Lionsgate) Really didn’t fight it. They were so supportive of the entire film. At one point we’re making the film (I said to) Michael Pasternack, who was head of all our production (and) a great guy “Is there a problem with what you’re seeing with the film?” He said, “No, not at all. Why?” And I said, “because you guys never come to the set!” He said “We don’t need to come to the set. We’re looking at the dailies and they’re good. If they weren’t we’d be at the set every day.” And here Bill was doing his first film and this is what the studio was saying, “No, were gonna stay away because we’re so thrilled with what we’re seeing.” I think the only wish if I had a wish, it’d be if we had the opportunity to make that film and then turn around and really have a marketing of the film. Because Lionsgate said to me that “we just weren’t ready for this kind of film.” They had not hit their horror world yet. They had not done Saw or any of those and were just getting their feet in the water. And though they did a great job on the poster and trailers, it really wasn’t out there and I think that hurt us because most people didn’t even know it existed.
BD: That’s an amazing story and thank you for sharing it. I hear you still have “Otis,” the axe from the movie, in your office?
DK: I do! It’s normally on the wall but I brought it here. Bill named it Otis. A lot of people have said in chat rooms and such that Otis…anytime you go to a department store or building and get in an elevator and look down the threshold says “Otis.” 90% or something of the elevators in the United States you get in say “Otis.” People were saying the reason it was named that, was because those elevators go up towards heaven or go down towards hell. And again, I have no idea where that came from (laughs) but in truth? Bill came across a homeless guy whose name was Otis and he was fascinated by the idea of this. Bill loved (the) kind of stories and people that weren’t the shiny people. He really was fascinated by what lay in the shadows and the sadness of life and he would just go talk to people. And though I wasn’t with him when he met this guy, Otis, it just stuck with him and he said, “I don’t want it just to be an axe. I want the axe to say Otis on it.” And I just thought that was so cool. Such a great touch.
BD: That’s amazing. I’ve also heard both that “Otis” stands for the acronym of “Only the innocent survive” and also the theory that “Otis” was Paxton’s character’s real name in the movie (he’s only listed as “Dad” in the credit). Which would make sense because it protects the question of whether or not this is all real. Because if you see an axe named “Otis” you’d say “Oh, so he’s definitely being helped by this angel.”
DK: Man, you’ve given me chills up and down my arm and down my spine with that. I have never heard that. But I love that. What did you say that stands for again?
BD: “Only the innocent survive” was the fan theory I read. Not mine, just something I read.
DK: That’s phenomenal. I wish we had incorporated that in the film. I love that. Wow.
BD: The cast of Frailty is also amazing. Matthew McConaughey’s casting was interesting because he wasn’t doing a lot of films like this at the time.
DK: He said this film is what got him Dallas Buyers Club which he won the Academy Award for. Which, I don’t know if he was being nice or what. I knew he’d be good.
BD: I think for at the very least my lifetime, Bill Paxton is the greatest character actor ever. And he’s not limited to that of course but it was really cool that you all did such an amazing job with Frailty and that he was able to show off his leading man and directorial abilities as well.
DK: Just to be…aside from as a Producer…..a fly on the wall when we shot this film….the stream of people that came to visit him. From actors to Ray Manzarek, who was the keyboardist of The Doors. It was just a stream of fascinating people that were in Bill’s life that were coming to root him on and watch him. It’s something I will never forget for the rest of my life the gift of being able to work with him. Be in his presence. That was pretty darn great. He was very proud of the film.
I think Bill, so sadly in so many ways….but Bill….God, he just could have directed so many other great films. I know from there…and maybe the sophomore jinx there for him too… it took a couple years. He was being offered a lot of stuff and then he took a film (The Greatest Game Ever Played) and it just didn’t work out for him. It was a rough go and it was so different than what he had just two years before done with us and I think there was some kind of sophomore jinx and he wanted to stay away from that because he didn’t think he could outdo himself. Which, I personally think he could have.
BD: Any other stories you’d like to share about working with Bill Paxton?
DK: The only real disagreement Bill and I had while shooting the film was when the demons are revealed as Dad lays his hands upon them. Bill wanted, and it’s reflected in Brent Hanley’s great script, that when Dad touches those he kidnapped, without his gloves on, they are revealed for what they are, evil at its core. Bill wanted the demons to have prosthetics of horns and scary sharp teeth. I only wanted their crimes shown in flashback, because in my opinion, there are no real demons out there with sharp fangs and horns. Demons walk this earth in human form. Whether it’s Manson, Dahmer, Hitler or Ruth Snyder, humans are very often the most dangerous creatures on earth. Bill didn’t agree and said, “David you’re pulling by the short hairs,” an expression that I had never heard before and made me laugh. I loved Bill, but I honestly felt that seeing those creatures would have pulled the audience right out of the scene.
BD: I’m glad that despite the marketing and box office Frailty received such a second life and found its audience on Home Video. On that note, do you think there’s any hope we get to see Frailty on 4K someday soon?
DK: I don’t know the answer to that. I…maybe after our discussion here and if enough people make noise online that would be the case. So please! That would be wonderful to see because I sure would love to see and own that.
BD: One last question for the Child’s Play fans out there. Have you ever thought about a full Charles Lee Ray prequel movie that didn’t even feature Chucky?
DK: Absolutely. I discussed this with Universal just recently, it’s so funny you’re saying this….the idea of a prequel. That Chucky does not appear in it but Charles Lee Ray….in the world that you inhabit you know this but I don’t know if your listeners do…..but Charles Lee Ray…those are the names of people that terrorized me when I was a kid. Charles is Charles Manson. Lee is Lee Harvey Oswald who shot Kennedy and Ray is James Earl Ray who shot Martin Luther King. They had an effect on my childhood and so that was the name that I dubbed him for the series. So, the idea of this….and he was….he was a Manson like character. He was this manipulative, very bright…he just knew how to play the chessboard so well. I would love to see the events leading up to that night where he dies in the toy store and the scene right before when you see Brad Dourif kill his supposed partner in crime Eddie Caputo. Yes, I would love to see that. Universal said, “Oh that’s interesting. That’s really interesting.” That’s where we are at the moment so my hope is that we can do a version of that and before Brad gets too much older and do some work digitally to make him younger for those particular scenes that we would need him to be that much younger for.
Don Mancini explores…[in the “Chucky” TV series]….the childhood and Don said something so interesting. And that is that he didn’t want to explore this messed up childhood that Charles Lee Ray had. He wanted him to have a just perfectly normal loving childhood…but he was a bad seed. He was born evil and I thought that was really interesting. Don wanted him to have a perfect childhood because some people are just born evil.
BD: I really appreciate your time and this was a special conversation for me to have.
DK: Thank you so much. I appreciate you keeping the memory of Bill Paxton and Frailty alive.
BD: Hopefully we can get people talking about that Frailty 4K!
DK: Yes, please! You’ve got the power! Thank you so much.